ok guys lets just switch back to gp3!! 
NAR 2007 Mod open discussion.
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Coffeemachine
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yooo
here is my saying, and it is my opiniun,
i have drive alot of racing games thru the years, and i can say that for so far i now this aint so wright, cause if u drive a car with low wings u supose tu spun in a corner, depending how fast or how u take the corner, but if u put higher wings especialy rear u supose tu take a corner faster than when u have lower wings, only on strightline u gone loose cause u will go slower, but even with high wings u spun like crazy,
soo there has tu be something done, some tweaking on tha physics. 
here is my saying, and it is my opiniun,
i have drive alot of racing games thru the years, and i can say that for so far i now this aint so wright, cause if u drive a car with low wings u supose tu spun in a corner, depending how fast or how u take the corner, but if u put higher wings especialy rear u supose tu take a corner faster than when u have lower wings, only on strightline u gone loose cause u will go slower, but even with high wings u spun like crazy,
soo there has tu be something done, some tweaking on tha physics. talking about reaction, or behaviuor from a CAR, i think u guys have tu go on RELAY, for more peeps online naturly, and test the LIENZ MOD, damn thats good, i test it yesterday, and must say its a fun tu drive,
what i did not realy like is the track, cause it is full off holes, i mean those groves but drives good, go there and test ureself, and feal the andrelaline in ure body floating 
cyaa
what i did not realy like is the track, cause it is full off holes, i mean those groves
but drives good, go there and test ureself, and feal the andrelaline in ure body floating cyaa
but not witht that game. They were and still are using another game, probably GrandPrix4...
Flow is correct. But it isn't one in the GP series.ok guys lets just switch back to gp3!!
I always thought they where running a modded version of rF but it seems they are running a game called:
Formula One Championship Edition from Sony (Studio Liverpool).
I suspect they are running the PS3 version (unreleased I think).
Unfortunately this game does not have multiplayer support.
Full story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_06
-"Winning is like a drug...I can't settle for second or third in no circumstances whatsoever"
(Ayrton Senna)
(Ayrton Senna)
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Flow
- Spam kingpin
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Here noob, im shure those are the kind of comparaison you do...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pioZXrxA ... ed&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pioZXrxA ... ed&search=
NAR.F1 driver
Well, no - not really.
I normally just watch the "real" onboard lap.
I know how my car behaves around the lap so I just focus on the real one to get an idea of settings that I coud do better.
I normally just watch the "real" onboard lap.
I know how my car behaves around the lap so I just focus on the real one to get an idea of settings that I coud do better.
-"Winning is like a drug...I can't settle for second or third in no circumstances whatsoever"
(Ayrton Senna)
(Ayrton Senna)
About realism I amnot going to argue with you, although I disagree with some of the comments. I can assure you that with rF1GP physics for instance 1:26 are easily doable on a f1c converted Merlbourne, in real season 06 I think Alonso may have not been far of a 1:24 if I recall correctly. Anyway IMHO The faster quys are also still going to be faster than the slower guys just with any mod, I have seen that already from the laptimes. A noob wil not be able to drive alongside a veteran, perhaps the noob wil make less mistakes and stay on track but that's about it.
I can totally understand you may want something more challenging than rF1GP, but if you are going by that premise forget about argueing realism versus hardness and using it as a criterion. Basically have the car the way you want it to feel if that is what you find the most important. There are plain mathematical parameters that are wrong in 1.06. I am not a car mechanic but have done physics, math type related jobs for many years and I understand these files pretty well. But if you are happier driving 1.06 physics that is perfectly OK.
Now some physics bable :
About the comment from Hitman about not putting realsitic data because of hiding it, I doubt it very much.
You can use real data to feed into a mod/sim ok, as you can use effective data derived from real data quite well to represent the behaviour of a car in a sim, but the converse, extrapolating real data from effective data in a sim, is useless to conclude anything useful for a real f1 team.
Remember that the sim is such a gross simplification in terms of representing weight, simply using effective values for the moments of inertia and earodynamics, that kind of data will tell a real f1 Team absolutely nothing, and that is the most crucial bit an F1 Team needs to understand.
Trust me on this that aero calculations and modeling in the wind tunnel in reality are so complex that if you wanted to calculate the real aero in rfactor to that level for say one way point on a track, it would take hours for a modern computer to work out what is doing in the next step. hehe a lap would take ages to complete.
I have done these kind of calculations for aeroplanes about 6 years ago and modern computers are still waaay to slow do anythig realsitic in terms of aero in real time. That is not to say though that the very simple effective model in rfactor doesn't translate well, it and is very possible that it is actually very close to what the car would do in reality, but the underlying mathematical reasons in terms of understanding it are entirely different between the sim and the kind of data an f1 Team actually need to know.
</end rant>
I can totally understand you may want something more challenging than rF1GP, but if you are going by that premise forget about argueing realism versus hardness and using it as a criterion. Basically have the car the way you want it to feel if that is what you find the most important. There are plain mathematical parameters that are wrong in 1.06. I am not a car mechanic but have done physics, math type related jobs for many years and I understand these files pretty well. But if you are happier driving 1.06 physics that is perfectly OK.
Now some physics bable :
About the comment from Hitman about not putting realsitic data because of hiding it, I doubt it very much.
You can use real data to feed into a mod/sim ok, as you can use effective data derived from real data quite well to represent the behaviour of a car in a sim, but the converse, extrapolating real data from effective data in a sim, is useless to conclude anything useful for a real f1 team.
Remember that the sim is such a gross simplification in terms of representing weight, simply using effective values for the moments of inertia and earodynamics, that kind of data will tell a real f1 Team absolutely nothing, and that is the most crucial bit an F1 Team needs to understand.
Trust me on this that aero calculations and modeling in the wind tunnel in reality are so complex that if you wanted to calculate the real aero in rfactor to that level for say one way point on a track, it would take hours for a modern computer to work out what is doing in the next step. hehe a lap would take ages to complete.
I have done these kind of calculations for aeroplanes about 6 years ago and modern computers are still waaay to slow do anythig realsitic in terms of aero in real time. That is not to say though that the very simple effective model in rfactor doesn't translate well, it and is very possible that it is actually very close to what the car would do in reality, but the underlying mathematical reasons in terms of understanding it are entirely different between the sim and the kind of data an f1 Team actually need to know.
</end rant>
hi mate. for starters i must say i am not so good in english or any form off communication so alot i just have to guess what it actually means.
But are you trying to say we can better stop trying to simulate f1 and just get backt to playing a game?
I dont know shit from chinowa if it has to do with any kind of numbers or calculations so i always just go with what i feel.So if even a Bourdais testing a F1 car with the use of aids , needs atleast 3 testing days to get confident enough to even consider pushing the pedal,maybe these offnumber characteristic in 1.06 isnt so wrong at all to compensate for what the sim is missing.
Atleast what i am trying to say is, the 1.06 car comes pretty close to what i suspect a F1 car without aids at the end of 2006 would be like if i took it round for a spin....
But are you trying to say we can better stop trying to simulate f1 and just get backt to playing a game?
I dont know shit from chinowa if it has to do with any kind of numbers or calculations so i always just go with what i feel.So if even a Bourdais testing a F1 car with the use of aids , needs atleast 3 testing days to get confident enough to even consider pushing the pedal,maybe these offnumber characteristic in 1.06 isnt so wrong at all to compensate for what the sim is missing.
Atleast what i am trying to say is, the 1.06 car comes pretty close to what i suspect a F1 car without aids at the end of 2006 would be like if i took it round for a spin....
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SteveB
- NAR administrator
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ya Flow that work in progress has been like that for months now.I doubt we will see anything from RH for RFactor anytime soon.
What I can tell you is that CTDP are almost half way through the 06 mod for rFactor so I am sure that will be released in the NEW YEAR.
I will keep an eye on it just in case.
What I can tell you is that CTDP are almost half way through the 06 mod for rFactor so I am sure that will be released in the NEW YEAR.
I will keep an eye on it just in case.
FORZA FERRARI !!
2011 NA DIV ADMIN
2011 NA DIV ADMIN
i can totally concur on this(yes another occurrence of a concurrenceafborro wrote: Trust me on this that aero calculations and modeling in the wind tunnel in reality are so complex that if you wanted to calculate the real aero in rfactor to that level for say one way point on a track, it would take hours for a modern computer to work out what is doing in the next step. hehe a lap would take ages to complete.
BAR Honda for example uses a computer cluster (about 30 duel-core systems) for there computational fluid dynamics software, each cpu running its own license. Ive always assumed the aero calculations were very basic for games, we just don't have the computing power to model all of it accurately. i wouldn't be surprised it the main front and rear wing elements were modeled fairly well, but ground affect, radiator flows,brake duct turbulence, and all the other little stuff is to difficult, and again aero is a pretty highly guarded secret(not just what the teams are doing, but the actual knowledge that the veteran aerodynamicists have isn't exactly shared, there was a very good article about that in an older issue of Race car Engineering, excellent mag out of the UK)
Afborro:
We seem to have pretty much the same ideas on how to go about in developing a mod. Your most recent post confirms this even more than before.
As for the rumour about BMW not allowing ISI to use the model because of secrets, I think that is a fairytale as well. We would be lucky to have a model that matches the behaviour of your "standard variety 600kg 700bhp single seater" category of vehicle.
While this may sound contratictory to what I have been saying in the past it really isn't.
What I mean is that; if you take a Champ Car, or an F1 car, or an Indy Car and put it on a track and watch it, laptimes will be different, but the _behaviour_ of the car will be pretty much the same. This is from the inertial properties that they have in common (give or take 1%, 2% or even 10%).
F1.06 and F1.05 changes these, and does it quite drastically too, towards pitch and yaw instability.
Now the aerodynamics are a mystery even to experts (simply because the system of cause and effect is so complex it cant be expressed in simple form but has to be simulated or even experimented). It is easy enough to figure out what the variables in the simplified ISI model mean. But impossible to come up with even an estimate. Unless you have multiple sets of telemetry and knowledge of the (VERY FEW!!) changes between the sets.
So the fact that F1.06 changes any but the most most basic lift vs drag ratio just seems like a random noise on the hdv.
But I will round off by taking a step back.
We have been running the F1.05 for a whole season and while frustrating in some situations, it has provided a good racing platform.
It is possible that another car can provide a better platform but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter...
I started expressing these views on the nervousness of the F1.0x and sort of expected people to agree. After all, we all watch f1, I thought to myself. But the fact that people don't agree can mean one of two things:
1) Either I am blind when watching laps.
2) Or everyone else is.
Simple deductive logic.
The intresting (and rather neat) thing about the two very different alternatives is that they both share the same solution:
- Just drop it noob!
Don't get me wrong. I am not crossed or anything. I just feel I have been through the key points of my argument. So I am pitting the car until the vote.
We seem to have pretty much the same ideas on how to go about in developing a mod. Your most recent post confirms this even more than before.
As for the rumour about BMW not allowing ISI to use the model because of secrets, I think that is a fairytale as well. We would be lucky to have a model that matches the behaviour of your "standard variety 600kg 700bhp single seater" category of vehicle.
While this may sound contratictory to what I have been saying in the past it really isn't.
What I mean is that; if you take a Champ Car, or an F1 car, or an Indy Car and put it on a track and watch it, laptimes will be different, but the _behaviour_ of the car will be pretty much the same. This is from the inertial properties that they have in common (give or take 1%, 2% or even 10%).
F1.06 and F1.05 changes these, and does it quite drastically too, towards pitch and yaw instability.
Now the aerodynamics are a mystery even to experts (simply because the system of cause and effect is so complex it cant be expressed in simple form but has to be simulated or even experimented). It is easy enough to figure out what the variables in the simplified ISI model mean. But impossible to come up with even an estimate. Unless you have multiple sets of telemetry and knowledge of the (VERY FEW!!) changes between the sets.
So the fact that F1.06 changes any but the most most basic lift vs drag ratio just seems like a random noise on the hdv.
But I will round off by taking a step back.
We have been running the F1.05 for a whole season and while frustrating in some situations, it has provided a good racing platform.
It is possible that another car can provide a better platform but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter...
I started expressing these views on the nervousness of the F1.0x and sort of expected people to agree. After all, we all watch f1, I thought to myself. But the fact that people don't agree can mean one of two things:
1) Either I am blind when watching laps.
2) Or everyone else is.
Simple deductive logic.
The intresting (and rather neat) thing about the two very different alternatives is that they both share the same solution:
- Just drop it noob!
Don't get me wrong. I am not crossed or anything. I just feel I have been through the key points of my argument. So I am pitting the car until the vote.
-"Winning is like a drug...I can't settle for second or third in no circumstances whatsoever"
(Ayrton Senna)
(Ayrton Senna)
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Coffeemachine
- Posts: 775
- Joined: 21 Oct 2006, 21:02
- Location: Luleå
- Contact:
well i also feel affboro has touched, and comfimed, some of my points. If real F1 where behaving as 1.06, we would have lots of spectacular crashes 
.
furthermore a more stable mod which probably will lead to closer racing and less misstakes/DNFS cant really be a bad thing can it?
I say rf1gp physics with the eyecandy of the 1.06 graphics.
its a meld, yes, so be it
and to me, graphics is important too so i would rather not use rf1gp w/o any skin modifications (havn't seen the new skins yet tho)
i will also rest until we get to vote
Å
(<-- its a santa ) (santa reason for editing)
.furthermore a more stable mod which probably will lead to closer racing and less misstakes/DNFS cant really be a bad thing can it?
I say rf1gp physics with the eyecandy of the 1.06 graphics.
its a meld, yes, so be it
and to me, graphics is important too so i would rather not use rf1gp w/o any skin modifications (havn't seen the new skins yet tho)
i will also rest until we get to vote
Å
(<-- its a santa ) (santa reason for editing)[12:19:47]Dropkick: somebody tried to mug me once
[12:19:59]Dropkick: but i was so drunk i did not understand
[12:19:59]Dropkick: but i was so drunk i did not understand
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Ruben Miranda
- Posts: 1631
- Joined: 05 Dec 2004, 17:33
- Favorite team: Ferrari
- Location: So. Calif
Still testing
Hello
Afborro
With out insult to myself or anyone here all of us here have never driven a f1 car so there is no way for us to know how it should handle or not handle. So that leaves us with Trusting what you have done and what ISI have done and all other modders. And with respect for all of the above the work is fantastic.
But we are left with useing testing trying to find the one that we like & think it is close to real as it can be.
We can not in anyway say one mod is right and the other is wrong
We can only say we like one or one feels better then the other.
I have been testing RF1GP and F1C 1.06 at the same track Barcelona
Same setup (Well as close to the same as posiable) and I can get both to the same times 1:16+ with in 100th of a second.
And what I can tell you for myself that one is more demanding then the other. Now I am not saying that this is right I am saying that this is what I prefer
What I mean is that at all times you have to be on it concentrating and paying attention thru the whole lap or race.
Is F1C 06 real I don't know but for me and my thinking and reading it behaves and feels like it should well at least some aspects of it.
As I have said I feel the back end is to twitchy.
But RF1GP as I said Nice mod no doubt about it.
But and many might want this but I find it to easy.
It is fun but it lacks the challenge that is expected here.
You have to remember that most of us here has been siming for years.
We are not noob's and we want to be challenged and we want othersto jion us to be challenged.
Well in anycase
At the end of everything we all have only one thing to go on.
And that is our feeling of how we think it should be at entering a corner or hitting a curb. We defently will never be in the driver seat to feel what the car and driver are doing at any given secound.
Hitman
Afborro
With out insult to myself or anyone here all of us here have never driven a f1 car so there is no way for us to know how it should handle or not handle. So that leaves us with Trusting what you have done and what ISI have done and all other modders. And with respect for all of the above the work is fantastic.
But we are left with useing testing trying to find the one that we like & think it is close to real as it can be.
We can not in anyway say one mod is right and the other is wrong
We can only say we like one or one feels better then the other.
I have been testing RF1GP and F1C 1.06 at the same track Barcelona
Same setup (Well as close to the same as posiable) and I can get both to the same times 1:16+ with in 100th of a second.
And what I can tell you for myself that one is more demanding then the other. Now I am not saying that this is right I am saying that this is what I prefer
What I mean is that at all times you have to be on it concentrating and paying attention thru the whole lap or race.
Is F1C 06 real I don't know but for me and my thinking and reading it behaves and feels like it should well at least some aspects of it.
As I have said I feel the back end is to twitchy.
But RF1GP as I said Nice mod no doubt about it.
But and many might want this but I find it to easy.
It is fun but it lacks the challenge that is expected here.
You have to remember that most of us here has been siming for years.
We are not noob's and we want to be challenged and we want othersto jion us to be challenged.
Well in anycase
At the end of everything we all have only one thing to go on.
And that is our feeling of how we think it should be at entering a corner or hitting a curb. We defently will never be in the driver seat to feel what the car and driver are doing at any given secound.
Hitman
I might not be fast, But I am ahead of you.
Ruben Hitman Miranda
Ruben Hitman Miranda
yooo
i have bean playing with the Mods a bit, soo i wonder if u guys wanna test this, before u guys go and give me the thing that i did a bad thing, i am not a modder, and only wanna see if its a step in the right way 
i have bean playing with the Mods a bit, soo i wonder if u guys wanna test this,
before u guys go and give me the thing that i did a bad thing, i am not a modder, and only wanna see if its a step in the right way - Attachments
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- NARtestFiles.zip
- (10.9 KiB) Downloaded 534 times
