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SteveB
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Post by SteveB »

IMO if F1 champions 06 mod still needs engine and physics tweaking and no one around to help tweak it then it is not worth testing right now.

If we do hundreds of laps with it in it's current state only to get engine and physics updates 1 month before the season starts then we did all those laps for nothing......BUMMER!!!!

Looks like it is going to be a LONGGGGGGG winter with NO F1 :( :(

Also IMO this should have been decided weeks ago. 1 month isn't enough time for us slower drivers to get up to speed or try to get comfortable with the NEW settings.
Sorry guys I hope no one takes offence to this but I was never one for last minute decisions, it creates too much confusion and having to settle for things that aren't right that could have been fixed with the proper amount of time.
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Post by Flow »

You still have a good point SteveB, faster is better. But how choose a mod that is not already fully tested? and did any gave a chance to limpy to ask him if he wants to make some tweeking? Faster is better, but too fast isnt mutch better. Still my personal opinion...
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Well

Post by Ruben Miranda »

Hello
I know we are not to fight here and I am not trying to start one.
And I don't know a nice way of saying this
IMO if F1 champions 06 mod still needs engine and physics tweaking and no one around to help tweak it then it is not worth testing right now.

If we do hundreds of laps with it in it's current state only to get engine and physics updates 1 month before the season starts then we did all those laps for nothing......BUMMER!!!!

Looks like it is going to be a LONGGGGGGG winter with NO F1

Also IMO this should have been decided weeks ago.
How can you say that doing laps or testing is a waste of time.
If you don't test how can you give a oppinuion How can you say the phisics need to be changed If you are going by what you here or being told then that would not help anyone.

I have not a hundred laps but I am finding my way thru the setup of the 06 and it is much better then when I first went around the track.

If any changes do come (And I am sure there will be) I have never seen a mod or a track that did not get some kind of update after it's release or months down the road.

Most time the update or physic change would more then likly be unnoticed.

I think the biggest problem we all are having is that the diffrence between 1.05 and 1.06 is so drastic that we are fighting to grasp it.

Remember that even F1C 1.05 was not right when we first got it but it got a liitle twicked and we got uset to it and we had a great season.

We all need to try and test as much as we can that is what it is all about.
Even the real F1 Guys are testing and changeing things thats just life.

Well we where still finishing the season a few weeks back now is the time to find the mod and make a dission.

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Post by SteveB »

I to have done laps with the 06 mod and in my opinion does need some tweaking I am not going by what I've heard or read.
Yes testing is needed to find the problems but who do we send this feedback to? That was the point I was trying to make LIMPY isn't online yet and who knows when he will be back if he does come back.

I hope he does soon... :) :)
Last edited by SteveB on 14 Dec 2006, 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Ruben Miranda
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Sorry

Post by Ruben Miranda »

Hello
Well I see that what I wrote hurt you or pissed you off.
And I am sorry for that but it was not my intention to do that.
And it is not ideal to have a potencial tester give up and just walk away.
But I can see your point.

I am confident that Limp will be back as soon as he can in the mean time.
we can lean on each other and ask other modders and I belaive that Afborro also will try to lend his expertise.

But getting mad and walking away becuase of diffrent idea's or hurt feelings helps no one.

I know that we really don't know each other here Not like we know are friends and famliy that we have beers with and all that.
But with me (And I tell you the Truth) If I piss you off or I am acting like a Asshole I would rather you tell me Fuck you Ruben Or tell me I am acting like a ASSHOLE then for you to get mad walk away and not be my friend.

But intern if I meet someone that I have to watch what I say or they won't be my friend then I will be friendless.

Ok Back to testing

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Post by carrera »

Hey Guys,
No big deal about the new mod.I have tested both the 1.06 mod extensively and the new rf1GP mod by affborro.Here is my opinion.Far better physics on the RF1.I set that car up and found the car to be totally drivable right away.The engine redlines at 20,400..Whats not to like.The car just flows over the curbs effortlessly.On the other side of the coin.I had a little time adjusting to the 1.06 mod but when I got the car figured out it was a blast to drive.More like a gokart.Obviously the car models in 1.06 are just stunning.The RF1 cars are obviously open to new paint jobs.It is a pretty good tossup.I would have to say the rf1 physics and engine as well as the options in setup win out.I say we test with the rf1 mod for now as the physics are more true and the car is more forgiving on the curbs.
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Post by Racer »

Ingo



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yoo

i have the latest Engine from limpy, thats the 1 i get from Klaaz, and i did a test again with it, soo if u guys wanted u can get it from Klaaz, or he can put it in PRIVETE, so that only NA and Euro can test it, that way we can not get mismatch with publik server,


cyaa

i told this before, obviosly u guys dont want tu see it, is it me or u guys dont want tu see what i wrote here, :cry:

:x :cry:

i am not the best driver, but i findt that Limpys MOD is great, only the Engine have tu be better, and there is an engine already tu test
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Post by SteveB »

ok this is what I tried...(hopefully Afborro doesn't mind) I copied AFBORRO'S GEAR.INI and ENGINE.INI into F1 CHAMPIONS 06 mod and WOW what a difference. The engine seems to be alot smoother and for some reason the car seems to be more stable especially under braking,it doesn't seem to be as twichy, but I only did a couple of laps I will be doing more testing today.

I took a look at both these files from Afborro's mod and Limpy's mod and they are very similar in fact the biggest difference was in the torque values so that is why I tried swapping these 2 files.

If you want to try it BACK UP origional F1 06 GEAR.INI and ENGINE.INI files then RENAME the RF1 GEAR.INI and ENGINE.INI to F106 and drop them into the F1 CHAMPIONS 06 folder and overwrite the origionals.

I think it is worth a try for now....:)
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Post by carrera »

I think we should try that new engine that Limpy has.I bet the torque curve is way lower.The car then would be smoother under acceleration and maybe not so twitchy on exit.
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Post by Flow »

Ingo , can you zip and post here the files? is it too heavy file?

This weekend, i will give a try to both limpy lates engine, and Afboro rf1gp (I only did 2-3 laps with his mod up to now)
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Post by SteveB »

If LIMPY'S NEW ENGINE.INI file is dated SEPTEMBER 1st, 2006 I think we all are using that now.
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Post by Racer »

no SteveB,
this Engine is new 1, and its way difrent tu what we have now,
u can ask Klaaz for that engine, i am at work now, or maybe later i can pass that,
Klaaz was planing tu put up an server with that engine,

so we can test it,
i did test it must say its much more stady and lap times is bit higher.

i did test the engine from Afborro tu, and its almost the same as the new 1 from Limpy,

i sugest lets all get that Engine go du some testing :wink:
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Post by noob1234 »

I think the biggest problem we all are having is that the diffrence between 1.05 and 1.06 is so drastic that we are fighting to grasp it.
This isn't really the issue for me.
The problem I have with the f1.06 existed in f1.05 aswell.
The nervousness over curbs and bumps.
I am fairly convinced that this is related to the very fundamental physics defined in the .hdv.
The yaw and pitch (especially the pitch) inertias are very, very low.
This means that a small compression in the front will accelerate the pitch motion of the car and cause the rear to bottom out or at least overload the rear.
So this affects the car over bumps.
But there may be another effect not entirely obvious.
I noticed toward the end of the season that even on the lowest of wing settings I was burning up my rear tires down the straights if the front was stiff unless I found some magic combo of fast bump rebound damping which would drastically reduce it. I think this unnatural burn may also stem from the fact that the pitch inertia is low (allowing the front to drastically affect the rear).
The roll inertia is higher than the BMW and afborro cars. I am not sure how this affects the car but I did notice that I found myself running completely without anti-roll bars in the 1.05 by the end of the season.
Could be the indicator that high inertia resisting roll pretty much voids the need for ARB.
Then I have some issues with all the aero changes from the stock cars to the 1.05 and 1.06.
These aren't grounded by effects found under testing but simply a concern of mine which is the same as what afborro said earlier: If ISI + BMW + Intel can't get it right, who can?
I wouldn't say this about everything.
Naturally it is ok to alter the engine torque curve. This is a simple change which can be made while keeping the same nature of the curve or even altering it in a way that is commonly known (V10 vs V8 for example).
Or to alter the mass of the car and make an estimate on the distribution for the inertia.
Or even to go as far as to reduce the drag effect of the front wing (if ppl feel the front wing should not influence drag as much, I know I read this somewhere a long time ago)
Or increase / decrease the overall downforce of the wings to match corner speeds and straightline speeds of the car in a specific season.
But to alter the "lift per yaw" or "drag 2nd order with lift" just makes me nervous. I can't help but to think there are some aero effects happening that aren't perhaps entirely correct. :)
One example; I think it was the force from lifting the front wing seems have a forward component (instead of a backward component). If you think about the way a wing looks I just can't see that happening. Incidentally DTCP mod has the same strange parameter.
Another thing is that the bump rubbers are stiffer (and less damped i think) in 1.05 & 1.06 vs the stock cars. This probably has it's effect on nervousness and curb stability at high speeds. I personally have never used a bump stop on a final 1.05 race setup.

In the end it all comes down to this for me:
I consider some tweaks safe and others dangerous and the f1c '5 & '6 touches too many of the dangerous ones. This is why my preference is the afborro mod. And this is why testing the 1.06 isn't really interesting for me. I don't know how the car is supposed to behave under the dangerous parameters. All I can say is that ISI and BMW hopefully at least have an estimate.
If it where only on the safe parameters I would be able to help. Looking at real life replays, trying to evaluate corner speeds, straight line speeds, revs, accelerations, grips etc...

<edit>
Actually I have no Idea how the car is supposed to behave. But keeping the dangerous parameters unaltered and only tinkering with 3 or 4 unknowns makes it possible to try and compare behavior with replays and do some tweaking to get as close as possible.
In the 1.05 and 1.06 car I need to first work for 20-30 minutes on making the car driveable and somewhat follow the correct raceline before I can even think about comparing my lap with the lap in a real onboard replay. This is what I meant in an earlier post that the car is either inherently stable or inherently unstable. BMW & afborro cars allow you to start lapping immediately. You have to work on the setup to be fast but not to make it round the track. This is how I would excpect that a f1 car comes out of the factory aswell. Engineers aren't going to design something inherently tricky and then hope and pray that the setup can be tweaked somehow to perform eventually as they get to the various circuits.
</edit>
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Post by Racer »

damn noob
u have tu be an ingenier, 8) u did ure study thats for sure,
:wink:

but what u think off Afborro phsics with Limpys Mod.
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Post by klaaz »

okee, if i put this engine on server , the thought about running publik files to gain more drivers wont work so ill just keep mismatches allowed...
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F1C_engine ini 22 oct 06.zip
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Post by Flow »

Noob :shock: i have no comment about it, lol. I will have to srudy your post for few hours to remember waht you said, haha. But at least i read it and i uderstand what your saying, even if i cant comment back. Thanks.

I agree, we shoudl be able to do lap right out of pits, and learn how to be faster with tweeking and practice... that is SIM racing.
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Post by afborro »

On your last point. I am not syaing I got it a 100% right but what I find with rF1GP it replicates what happens in real f1 (for me anyway) in terms of how many laps it takes to lap as they do pretty much in reality.

Yesterday I started lapping on the Hungaroring EMG version, had not driven that track in many months, striaght out of the box I was able to lap in around 1:23 within a few laps, sort of exploraty pace. After a good solid session of 116 laps I ended up on 1:19.5 so I started with a setup from nil. Did 10 laps, tuned it a bit.more laps etc etc. I haven't even done a thousands of laps with this mod myself, but I guess somewhere approaching a 1000. If you compare the times I was getting and pull out the real 06 practice and quali times it is pretty much bang on for me.

I posted two setups for rF1GP at rfactor central. May be get you started, although personally I always try to not bias myself by looking at some elses setup and just start with an open mind when I am new to the physics.
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Post by carrera »

One of the most important things about being able to drive out of the box as you say.It will attract new drivers if they can setup the car right away.Faster setup means more on track time.The most important part for me for sure is how the car travels on the curbs.I'll test both mods more and try the new engine for limpys mod as well.My theory is.If you can use the curbs better ,you can get a better lap time.
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Post by SteveB »

I agree CARRERA and I am sure that NEW COMMERS would as well. It would at least give them a chance and not get discouraged right away by trying to drive a car that (for them) is undriveable and be able to get in lap times and maybe see those lap times drop after a few sessions... :)

Thanks for the ENGINE.INI file KLAAZ :)
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Post by noob1234 »

but what u think off Afborro phsics with Limpys Mod.
Uhm, ok there are a few alternatives here...
Do you mean:
Afborro engine.ini + F106 hdv : in this case no, not yet, since I doubt very much the engine is the problem (at least it isn't the problem that I see as the problem... if anyone is lost at this point of the sentence, plz join the club).
Afborro engine.ini + Afborro hdv + F1C skins and meshes: No, haven't tested this either but it should work.

So in short no, not yet, I have been buring my spare time running museum cars in the streets of the principality 8) 8)
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