MMG F107 comment

[SteveB]

Thank you my friend

I will do my best to shrug this off my shoulders.

[Coffeemachine]

hehe
anyway, just in this conversation thread you can suspect some troubles.
firefly philmax and killa cared to post a comment, klaaz isnt even a active driver...so really, where is the euro section?

sorry i just couldnt avoid mentioning it...

[Clockwork Avian]

Well mmg gave us a hope as it would be something like a generally accepted mod like rh2005 for f1c but they couldnt do it as clearly can be seen...

After that public edition which destroyed my rf settings amongst others', SE version was released but it is still bad bad bad...

I am not a very good driver nor a very good in setup. But I know what does what in setup. The car is understeering right? Decrease the front antiroll bar. Does it help? NO!!!! Increase therear anrtirollbar then? No it doesnt help! Even themost sensitive weight distribution doesnt work!!!! I moved it to theback all the way but no way, still understeer, nearly no change

I made the steering lock 20, still no solution. Talkin about solution, I mean no logical response can be achived by logical setup changes.

Anywa I am not the only one experiencing these problems. Loks like mod change is needed (my idea). This is no simulation.

[Firefly]

I am not a very good driver nor a very good in setup. But I know what does what in setup. The car is understeering right? Decrease the front antiroll bar. Does it help? NO!!!! Increase therear anrtirollbar then? No it doesnt help! Even themost sensitive weight distribution doesnt work!!!! I moved it to theback all the way but no way, still understeer, nearly no change

Those same changes do work for me in the MMG mod, they create oversteer.

[dutch power]

You want simulation, o well wait till i get in touch of some real good physiks package wich is revieuwed by a f1 engineer who is active in formula1 this year.
From what i heard i think you guys will dislike it completely Anyway i dont mean disrespect to anyone, but i have the impression that because its setuping bit different and being more responsive its easy to say that it sucks. It was the same when we moved from F12k2 to F1C i can remember the same discusion in that time that things where different.

Anyway to solve understeer oversteer isnt just changing anti rollbar and thinking that its fixxed, what about ure wings, springs and diferential

[Clockwork Avian]

You want simulation, o well wait till i get in touch of some real good physiks package wich is revieuwed by a f1 engineer who is active in formula1 this year.
From what i heard i think you guys will dislike it completely Anyway i dont mean disrespect to anyone, but i have the impression that because its setuping bit different and being more responsive its easy to say that it sucks. It was the same when we moved from F12k2 to F1C i can remember the same discusion in that time that things where different.

Anyway to solve understeer oversteer isnt just changing anti rollbar and thinking that its fixxed, what about ure wings, springs and diferential

You also know that the changes I made should have worked.. You may use any mod you like guys. I dont care.

[LeDoug]

You also know that the changes I made should have worked.. You may use any mod you like guys. I dont care.

I am 100% agree with you on this point.
If physics dont react like they should , it mean that they are not good! (even if they are so-called "realistic")
You definitively cant "get use" to a mod physic that are illogicaly responsive!
As much I drive on MMG (and I ve practiced a lot) as mush I think MMG dont have any clue about creating descent physic.
They made promisses to deliver the best F1 mod by just considering how beautifull 3D / graphics they did and they just failed to deliver good physic! and that's the simple and plain true about that mod.

Result is that NAR Euro league is not going well and I feel like it is going to be worst!

Something I would like to know is:
1. On which criteria MMG was prefered from F1RFT? (And I do hope that the answer wont be somehing like "F1RFT is illegal")
2. Why Nar euro driver were not asked to vote about this season MOD? (I ve read an answer on the forum but it sound a bit irealistic)
3. Did the NAR Euro drivers + admin had a long enougth test on F1RFT?
4. Did the NAR Euro drivers + admin had a test on MMG right after one on F1RFT?

I do realise that my questions are a bit annoying at this point but please feel reassure that I mean no arm to nobody and I am just wondering how we could get to this crissis with Nar Members leaving for another mod and other that are still in Nar and complaining about it.

Friendly

PS: ducth, With all the respect I have for you since I drive with you for many years now (I especially remember saison 2005/2006 ), I anyway feel that you are not totally fair in the way you answered clockwork cause someone as skill as you in racing simulation, should know that there is a probleme of physics with MMG or at least acknowledge that F1Rft is way better !

LeDoug

[Bilbo]

As much I drive on MMG (and I ve practiced a lot) as mush I think MMG dont have any clue about creating descent physic.
They made promisses to deliver the best F1 mod by just considering how beautifull 3D / graphics they did and they just failed to deliver good physic! and that's the simple and plain true about that mod.

To their defense, I must say that did have (IMO) better physics in their betas, even in the last one I could test before the release of PE 1.0 (v2.31 if I'm not mistaken, I can't check it now as I'm at work). Why they changed the physics at the last minute and why they did not just go back afterwards, I don't know.

Something I would like to know is:
1. On which criteria MMG was prefered from F1RFT? (And I do hope that the answer wont be somehing like "F1RFT is illegal")

Actually, that did play a significant role. AFAIK, it's only recently that the "legality" of F1RFT was cleared (at least to me and probably other admins too) and we had to make our decision before then. How important "legality" is to someone is something relatively personal. You can see the MMG choice as a "business decision". It had some pros and cons, just like F1RFT. The first goal we had for the NAR 08 season was to try to attract new members, which was looking to be much in favor of MMG vs F1RFT and F1C. Second, we wanted to come out of hiding with the tracks and mod and use something popular and public (see previous point). Finally, see my answer to your last questions below, we did not have much time at all to test the final versions. So the difficulty of setting up the car was blamed on the "adaptation period" which is relatively normal when trying new mods. Once the car is properly set up, MMG is quite enjoyable. So, overall, we preferred the MMG pros and cons to the F1RFT pros and cons (all of which had to be evaluated relative to a few weeks ago, not to today's situation).

2. Why Nar euro driver were not asked to vote about this season MOD? (I ve read an answer on the forum but it sound a bit irealistic)

Well, NA drivers weren't asked either. Voting on mods is NOT mandatory and there have been more NAR seasons without mod vote than season with it. Voting for admins is mandatory and they can decide to have a vote on the mod or not. We have accepted mod suggestions from members and F1RFT and F1C were among the "finalists" considered for this season but in the end, we decided to drop the vote and make the "business decision" of going with MMG. That was a unanimous decision among admins as we all agreed on our objectives for this season.

3. Did the NAR Euro drivers + admin had a long enougth test on F1RFT?
4. Did the NAR Euro drivers + admin had a test on MMG right after one on F1RFT?

I'll reverse the question: Did we have enough time to test the RELEASED version of MMG? Clearly not. The RELEASED versions (both PE and SE) did come out at the very last moment when they could still be considered for use in NAR. Given the differences with the last betas (which we did test and evaluate and the results were quite promising) and the released versions, we had to make very (and too-)quick decisions or postpone the season a second time, which I don't think anybody would have liked very much.

There, I hope I have answered your questions in a satisfying manner. Remember that hindsight is 20/20 so it's easy to judge things now compared to what it was just a few weeks ago...

[Drago(ITA)]

Imao the problem is not like that . NAR champioship (and correct me if i'm wrong ) has the main objective to have fun on track between people who share the same passion, and it is not something like :" Are you skilled enough to compete in our championship ?Let's show us."
So the main problem was that the mod (for the reasons Bilbo explained) was choosed even before test it. It was just ask drivers to post feedback on the mod, but that had no sense at all for mod decision at that moment, and even when now the situation is clearly against MMG from many euro drivers, admins asked suggestion about the mod but clearly telling that it's not sure that a mod switch will happen.
After that you can't complain if so many drivers leave NAR maybe in favour of a league where u can have a better mod and quite the same drivers you had at NAR.
So a deeper thinking on mod switch is dued imao.
But of course i'm not an admin, and mine remain only words to the wind.
See you on track.

[Firefly]

While I understand people wanting to switch to a different mod (and again I don't mind if we do) I would like to balance the discussion a little.

I can set up the MMG SE mod in a very similar style to the previous F1 Champions mod and the car behaves exactly the same. So I don't really understand all the negative comments about the mod reacting badly to setup changes when for me it is no different to any of the other good F1 mods I have used in the past - I make changes to the car and those changes have the affect I would expect them to.

So I am slightly confused by the level of criticism towards MMG.

[Drago(ITA)]

I'm happy for you firefly, but as i told i would like to know how many people like you like the mod at all. I am sure that with more or less work , first or after everyone will be able at least to set the car in drivable way , but the clue is : how mutch time do you need to learn how to set MMG car? And if i finally found the setup , will it be usefull as base for the next track or you'll need again the same amount of time to setup the car?
If we will see mutch more positive comments on MMG than only yours , it will mean that people like me who complain about MMG are the minority , and so we have to accept the situation. But till that moment it seems exact the opposite for now.

[Coffeemachine]

While I understand people wanting to switch to a different mod (and again I don't mind if we do) I would like to balance the discussion a little.

I can set up the MMG SE mod in a very similar style to the previous F1 Champions mod and the car behaves exactly the same. So I don't really understand all the negative comments about the mod reacting badly to setup changes when for me it is no different to any of the other good F1 mods I have used in the past - I make changes to the car and those changes have the affect I would expect them to.

So I am slightly confused by the level of criticism towards MMG.

Now i didnt really make my entire set from scratch, and i do find it a bit strange that some max out values are needed, BUT i got the car to work in a very similiar manner to - for example - f1rft - IN MELBOURNE.

Then i maxed out the wings and tried a few laps in MONACO....and it was undrivable and i mean i know my way around monaco quite well and all that, but we'd need a completely different setup for that. so yeah, MMG might be a bit like the BMW - hard to set up but ok when you get it to work.

what i really am saying is: It would be very interesting if you guys could try a few laps in monaco and see if you can make your way around it in a decent way!:) cause i for sure could not hehehe

[Flow]

Well, for me, i was able to make a set that alow me to qualif in 1:25 at australia, my PB was 1:24.2 in practice. I cant say that i like the way of setting the car, i always had weird setup, but i was able to race, at least in my division, a decent pace, and was able to make some fun. BUT, i must sayt that yes, setting the car is not like before, is it good or bad, i cant say yet. I had setup from other drivers, and i was not as fast as with mine. But i have less problem than majority to adjust to a new mod, but with practice, other can be faster than me, but with more time. So i cant realy complaint about the mod, i had great race last one, i fight with carrera 1/2 at 1sec behind and then i lead 2 second 1/2 half with Juan at .5 in my ass, untill i spun 2 laps before end, under pressure (lost of concentration, for too mutch mirror driving) and i finish second. I try to escape from Juan instead of just keep the lead, that was my problem.

For the braking thing, more i was laping, more the car was gripping to the track. 1st corner, i enter at 60 temps tire, and 2-3 laps later, im in +100, so braking problem are more related to physic about difference in tire temp compare to other mod? i cant say at 100%, but that is my personal conclusion untill i find or get proof that this is not true. Edited : Is it only the car reacting more with fuel in it? If that is, yes i like MMG, cause i dont like a mod that when you put fuel in it, you can almost pace as same as empty, that have no sens to me, maybe MMG is more like that, or just not good as you guys says. /end edit

Is the mod that is bad, or is it drivers that dont want to adjust to it? i cant say, but time will tell us, unlss a mod change is done. i dont mind, that is why im pretty quiet here. bring F1FRT or even F1C, il drive it, and il make fun of it, im here to make some fun. i also understand that if driver are not having fun with MMG, then i cant say nothing if they change mod, if more fun is in another mod. I wish i had more time to test the physic, and i wish that MMG would of help us a little to see how setuping the car. Maybe F1RFT is giving more feed back, then yes, it is better. I wont put pressure to keep MMG or change for F1FRT at this point, i dint done enough laps on F1FRT and not as mutch as i would of like with MMG.

In resume : setting is strange or not understand well on how to, but i still can have fun with MMG. Woud i have more fun with F1FRT? maybe, but i would need to try it for real before saying it.

Maybe we all had more fun with F1C finaly?

[LeDoug]

Thanks Bilbo for your answers!
Things are much more clear for me now!
I could understand the admin point of view and in fact it look like the responsible for that Crisis was ... the un-test SE mod!

Like Flow, except the race I f**k up alone I was able to make many stint (I dont have enought fingers to count the stints) at good pace and I had a PB of 1'23'9 but it cost me many hours of practice and still I acknoledged that the car react too strange to set modif!
On the opposite, i cannot have fun with MMG or actually not right now!

I would really like a mod switch (to F1RFT) but I feel like things will not be so easy!
Could we prevent Nar Driver to drive on MMG if they like it because other dont like it.....?
I dont know but in this matter, pleased one means punish the others and I dont really see this as a NAR behavior!
If the switch happen per vote with a clear difference of vote between MMG and the other mod (F1RFT), so maybe it could work.

In a way I could understand why many from NAR euro left!
No one at NAR want to prevent the other to have fun, like me taking a year off because of the mod i dislike.
I feel that Drago, Mac, Philmax,... (dont know how much more) decided to let Nar "satisfied" Drivers have fun with MMG, because at the end we are a bunch of friends on a school yard!

I like to think that if I "only" dislike MMG, think about how the ex-Nar members had to feel about that mod to literally quit the League where we all know each other!
And the funniest things is that the Ex-members are back together in another league.

I am really pissed off because I was so eager to get back on track with you guys!
Have fight with Limpy at Magny-cours , fight with Dutch at GP europe, fight with MAC at Brasil, .........theses are great memories I ve had at NAR.
The discusion with Klaaz ,Magnusen, MEO (and many other) were great and no-one care how fast they were but I liked to see them on the grid before starting.... it was really fun!

It's with a bit of frustration I am writing this reply but still with a ounce of hope.

I hope to cyu all on track!

Friendly

LeDoug

PS: Would you Drago come back to NAR EURO if we switch to F1RFT or you retirement from NAR08 is definitive?

[Clockwork Avian]

Well, I am sorry but I am leaving NAR too without even finishing one race due to mod and some other reasons related to some members. Dont blame me, as even your old friends leave due to some reasons.

I just want to say ingo: SORRY MATE.

[Bilbo]

... and even when now the situation is clearly against MMG from many euro drivers, admins asked suggestion about the mod but clearly telling that it's not sure that a mod switch will happen.
After that you can't complain if so many drivers leave NAR maybe in favour of a league where u can have a better mod and quite the same drivers you had at NAR.
So a deeper thinking on mod switch is dued imao.

I am sure you understand that the admins need to balance the desires of those who are still in NAR (if any are still left when I finish writing this) vs those of the ones who quit but maybe will come back (and hopefully won't just quit again come summertime) vs those who don't mind that much about the mod but hate mod-switching for its own sake.

It would be nice if we could have antennas and know where everyone stands on all issues and what everybody wants but that's not the case and, if people don't post or comment on the server, we have no way of knowing where things stand among the silent drivers (who are still many). Some people are more vocal than others and that's fine but the problem is actually with those who decide to remain silent or don't read the forums much. Even polls don't mean much unless everyone participates. So I think it's normal that, until we have a good idea where most people stand, admins will be very cautious in whatever they say until decisions are made.

But of course i'm not an admin, and mine remain only words to the wind.

Your opinion is very welcome and I (and likely other admins too) appreciate you and everyone taking the time to explain your views. Even if not everybody always agree with the content, rest assured that EVERY SINGLE post, not only here but in the whole forum, IS appreciated. I, for one, welcome any feedback, good or bad. Lack of feedback is actually a much bigger source of problems than negative feedback...

[Drago(ITA)]

give a look here from what Flow wrote:


EU-Aguri
-
-

EU-BMW
(Empty Clockwork Avian, quit racing, problem with mod and some members ?!?)F1rft
1- Gabrox (No comment)?

EU-Ferrari
(Empty Drago, quit racing)F1frt
2- Ingo (Euro Admin)?

EU-Honda
3- Artur Nunes (No comment)?
4- JeffB (No comment)?

EU-McLaren
5- Kaffemaskin (MMG or F1FRT, dont mind)so F1rft
6- Killahead (Boss)?

EU-Red Bull
7- Duck (MMG or F1FRT, dont mind)so F1rft
8- Nick Oldenhuis (No comment)?

EU-Renault
9- MAC (he comment, but i cant say what is choice)F1rft
(Empty Philmax, quit racing)F1rft

EU-Spyker
10- RoadRunner (No comment)?
-

EU-STR
11- LeDoug (Would like F1FRT, but seem to not mind MMG)F1rft
12- Mikko Melkkila (No comment)?


EU-Toyota
13- Firefly (MMG or F1FRT, dont mind)so F1rft
-

EU-Williams
14- Limpindog (No comment)need to be confirmed but i suppose F1rft
15- Sailsy (Prefer F1FRT, but dont mind stay with MMG)so F1rft

From there i see :
6 for F1rft for sure (assuming people will come back if there will be a mod change, and i'm among them)
4 who don't care about the mod , so it should not be difficult to take them to a mod change
8 question marks , that means we still don't know their opinion about this situation, and among them we have also admins

So before continuing talking about what to do or what not to do ,it should be better to ask those people what they think of this.
I know a post is already open on this , but maybe a pm or an email should be better and/or quicker .
If those people will not tell something in a reasonable time , it will just mean they dont care at all about what happen at NAR , so decision could be taken according to present drivers.
This is just a suggestion about the situation is happening at NAR.

[Flow]

Thanks Drago, finaly my wife is sick this morning, and i dont want to change my list up, your review is good, and like you said, we should all try to contact someone that we know, il do it for Xzwins, il phone him. As for admin, they didnt post any comment, i think they try to make thing abjectively as an admin, but even if they maybe give us hint on what to drive. You know that admin have to watch what they say, can come back in face as their personal comment may be taken as official.