Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

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Dan Rasmusson
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Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Dan Rasmusson »

As many people saw in the chatbox I had problems with my car being injured before the race even started and asked for a restart but it didn't happen. Flow personally thinks it should've been restarted to fix up the car but it's too late to do anything now. Then he got a suggestion for us:
Since I started out with an injured car, NatxoCC got connection lost and Mark gets Penalty???? for cutting the track (to 8 points or 0? no idea) He suggested a rerun of the race. Of course this wouldn't be fair to Kalimero who won the race so he suggested that the "rerun" will be done from 2nd to last with Kalimero still getting his welldeserved 10 points for finishing the race. This also gets all the DNFers a second chance if they want to and also allows new people to come back and race as there were very few people in this race. Obviously is Mark is okay with doing a rerun and race again next sunday he can do so too. (if he doesn't want any points for the first race that is)

What do you think guys? The track is very boring to race when you're alone but when there's alot of people on the curcuit it actually provides some good racing.

So to all the EURO drivers, Do you want to do a rerun of the race from 2nd place down?
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by dutch power »

As i said in my other post, i wont be racing anymore this year. So you can DQ me from the race or rerun thats all fine. :wink:
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Mr G »

dutch power wrote:As i said in my other post, i wont be racing anymore this year. So you can DQ me from the race or rerun thats all fine. :wink:

Its a shame Mark hope you reconsider :(
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Flow »

:(
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by pccmikasa »

Well, I think we have to know that this is only for fun. We have to enjoy racing, (finish racing if possible :lol: ), and be fair driving. All people in last race was fair, and I am sorry about Dun ' s problem with the car, I didn't notice that he wanted to restart, because my daughter was asking me something at starting, and because of that my first lap was a dissaster (not concentrated).

We have to avoid to loose fair people like Marc, he drives fast and he does not crash to other cars, and he said that if the administrators think that he has to receive a penalty, he is OK , although he thinks different, so this means he is honnest. We need good drivers to fun during the race, and also Dan does a good help because he explains what he think after the race, and also this is good. :wink:

Finally, the administrators decided, :roll: and everyone has to agree and prepare the next race. Marc won the race, so the issue is closed 8) . Congrats and I hope to see Dan and Marc next race. :)

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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Flow »

As per rule, if Mark realy cut that mutch, the worst penality he can have is to be put at end of finisher... 2nd in this situation, only 2 finished that race.

(Dot forget that him not an admin)
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Bilbo »

I had a quick look at the first few laps of Mark and I fail to see anything catastrophic warranting a DQ. The curbs are part of the track so unless there is really bad cutting later in his race, I can only see a time/position penalty as per the rules at worst, like Flow mentioned, and the decision to be DQ as a result is not actually for Mark to take (an admin usually does not officially judge his own race). But I don't think that Mark's decision is related to his cutting or not aways...
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by carrera »

I remember when I first joined NAR and had a terrible laggy race.I thought I did fine but I wiped out several people.
I didn't have a lot of motivation to keep going but there were these guys called "sirsmokealot....T.Karlsson....Killahead and ....of course Dutchpower and Dutchdevil who were very forgiving people(thank god) and egged me on saying"its all in fun".and thats all it took.T.Karlsson by the way,sent me 30 PM's saying all the same thing"You can't quit .Youre too funny."...My point is that MArk has been here all along and it would suck if another NAR vet left.
Anyway,thats my 2 cents worth.Myself.well I am still having fun even though I've blown up 3 times this year and pc locked up twice.
carrera 8) 8) 8)
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by dutch power »

Well when somebody starts to flame as soon as i crossed the finish line claiming that i cutted all laps more then 3 times something knacked here. Especialy when i was in cruise mode for about 75% of the race and lapping roughly a second slower per lap sometimes up to 2 secs per lap :mrgreen: , so i coudlnt realy care what others would think and i just said DQ me if you realy think i cutted so much.\

I dont mind to send my replay to admin so they can have a check on it, i leave it up to them to decide on it.

Anyway next week i have one extra week of vacation so will empty my mind and see what i will do if i will continue or not. I can only say that last weekend has been my worse race ever, not only because i won it but everything that happend around that race. :( Im the first one to admid that i made a mistake, also apologized for that right after the race even when i was filled with frustations. But im not the only one that made mistakes, take that in mind.
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Dan Rasmusson
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Dan Rasmusson »

I would like to say that I was missinformed as Fred and I have been talking about track cuts before and he mentioned that the curbs were not part of the track and that EVERYTHING outside the white lines were outside the track. That's how he saw it as he could've been half a second faster if he cut the track by only needing to have 2 curbs on the track. Regardless I agree with Fred on this manner as the curbs are not part of the track the white line is the last part of the track and everything outside it should be counted as trackcutting.

But since we have weird rules where the curbs are part of the track Valencia is basically impossible to trackcut on as if you're trackcutting with 4 wheels outside the curbs then you have hit the barrier anyway. Basically trackcutting was impossible on this track and I apologize for that. It's too bad you're leaving us again Mark but what's done is done.
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Flow »

To avoid any frustration and any disapointement, cutting should be reported as per the rule (for next time :wink: ) I put in Bold what is realy important in this case, feel free to read it all as a reminder.

Reporting rules violations
Any rules violation can/must be reported privately by anyone to an admin in the 2 days following a race. Please use Private Message (PM) at the forums to send violation reports. Include a description of the violation and the lap it happened on. Any violation report posted publicly may be ignored. Please keep these private. Violations and penalties will be posted publicly by the admins as soon as possible after verification. You are allowed and invited to denounce yourself if you know you have violated a rule. The admins reserve the right to review anyone's race replay without warning and call any violation found. Unfortunately, not everyone's race can be reviewed every time. This is not to be unfair, it's just because admins have a life too.

My note : if its a admin that is implicated, report it to the other division admin, it will be a pleasure to help, because admin cant say nothing about his infaction unless other admin ask info about it. In this case, Mark was acting as a temporary admin substitute, since he admin in past (begining of last year if im right)


Track cutting
There have to be at least 2 wheels touching the track AT ALL TIMES. The alternating white-and-color part of the curbs is considered part of the track, although this definition might be restricted and/or expanded for specific tracks. These will be posted by admins before the specific events, if needed. A driver is allowed to cut a total number of corners equal to 5% (rounded up) of the number of total race laps. Any additional cutting will be penalised with a time penalty of +10 seconds per infraction, to be applied according to the "time penalties" rule.

It is not allowed to pass outside the track. But it is allowed to take whatever action is necessary to prevent an accident. For example, if you're racing someone at Montreal at the chicane near the pit entrance and the guy in front spins in the chicane, you are allowed to cut to prevent the accident and continue your race unimpeded, but if he just brakes slightly earlier than you expected (or you just braked too late) while entering the chicane and you decide to cut and move around him to prevent a hit, there would be NO cutting penalty BUT you HAVE to let him pass you back at the first safe opportunity. Please understand the distinction between the two scenarios and don't be afraid to ask an administrator if there's any question about the nuances.

You can autopenalize for a cut by CLEARLY lifting off the gas pedal at the exit of that turn (or first safe opportunity), enough for it to be noticed in the replay (suggestion is 1 full second). Replay fidelity not being perfect in this, if you don't lift clearly enough, you can still be penalized. The choice is yours but even a "long" 1 (even 2) full second lift is still much less penalizing than the 10 seconds penalty you risk getting otherwise. Because of this, there will be NO discussion about things like "I got off the throttle but it's not apparent on the replay". It is the driver's responsibility to make it evident enough and to do it safely.

My note again : Maybe we should all read back rules in middle season, just to make shure we dont forget part of it, and ask anything if your not shure.

Full rules : http://www.noaidsracing.com/index.php?o ... Itemid=130
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Fred »

First, I will not partake in a penalty discussion for the Valencia race, that is up to the admins to deal with. I did not see it so I have no view on it.

But I would like to say that I think the rules regarding what is considered part of the track is quite strange after what I just read in the previous post. In NAR Euro League we have always said that the kerbs are NOT part of the track, and that the white line is the last part of the track. The same seems to be the case in real life, after seeing the Monaco Grand Prix this year where Massa got a warning for having all four wheels on the kerb in the second swimming pool chicane. But it seems like there is different regulations from race to race about that ( as with everything else in F1). Take the Nürburgring for example, where you can have all four wheels off the track out of the Mercedes-complex without recieving a warning of any kind.
An even more obvious example is the exit of turn 1 at A1-Ring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os3pY_CCvTw

Insane. Anyway I'm confused about it now, but I guess we should follow what's written here in NAR and nothing else.
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Jackson »

hm...
i didnt read everything,

when i found nar (early 08), i met a group of funny guys who had so much fun of driving eachother in a kind and respectfull way. that was the reason why i chose this league. we didnt keep it so serious but still that serious to have a competition, a friendly one.
but in the last weeks it seems that some keeping it too serouis, i mean we are not driving for billions of money, a cut dosnt cause a lost of money for us.
for sure cuting the track isnt nice, but i dont know anyone here who would cut all the time to benifit that much that he would get a better postion or whatever.
so all the matter about cuting and so on seems to brake nar, mark says already he might leave, others maybe too. thats sad so why just leave it how it is?

so back to the guy(s) who are taking it too serious, why do you care so hard about a little cut....i had fights with drivers and we cuted many times :D or driven a bit wider. but who cares?? when the little cut, the guy who might be involved dont care, why the hell cares someone who shouldn't care any shit on it ^^(expect it is an admin) and when noone complains even when he knows it, why is it still a problem.

whatever
i hope this matter wont brake nar (even when just one or two leave)
and i hope we see us in spa :)

my few cents :D
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by SteveB »

I agree Jackson.
In our NA race when I was chasing Flow he went wide a few times crossing the curbs, I didn't really care because we had a FANTASTIC battle going
and it didn't allow him to gain any time on me it actually benefited me. :twisted:

With that said if cutting enabled a driver to gain time or a position or took another driver out in doing so then I can see complaining about it, but like you and Fred said I haven't seen the replay.

I really hope you stay DP and enjoy the rest of your vacation bro. :)

To all other EURO drivers thinking of calling it quits we also really want you to stay. I know we all of that competitiveness in us and we shouldn't let that
get in the way of having fun, that's why we are all here......isn't it??

I know I wanted to quit a few times because I was not as fast as the others and haven't won a race in years but ALL you guys are FANTASTIC and I remembered why I joined NAR and that was to have fun doing what I can't do in real life and have an enormous passion for and that is FORMULA 1

Hope to see you ALL at SPA :) :) :)
FORZA FERRARI !!

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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Dan Rasmusson »

Well right now I think we're going way off the main topic here who most people haven't answered yet but since we're at it I might as well continue
Steve B wrote:I agree Jackson.
In our NA race when I was chasing Flow he went wide a few times crossing the curbs, I didn't really care because we had a FANTASTIC battle going
and it didn't allow him to gain any time on me it actually benefited me. :twisted:
SteveB I don't think you quite understand what track cutting is after reading this. If someone accidentally misses a turn and goes wide and actually loses time by going 3 wheels or more off track it's not considered a track cut because he didn't gain anything on it.

2nd note: I personally also thought that everyone in EURO agreed on that the kerbs is NOT considered part of the track normally, but since this isn't true then I personally think we should make a rulechange regarding trackcutting. I personally feel that the track should NOT be part of the track unless it's a specific turn which we all agree on that the kerb has to be part of the track on. What do you think about this idea?

/Dan.
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Fred »

Pascal's post sums it all up very well I think.
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Flow »

Dan Rasmusson wrote: 2nd note: I personally also thought that everyone in EURO agreed on that the kerbs is NOT considered part of the track normally, but since this isn't true then I personally think we should make a rulechange regarding trackcutting. /Dan.
Im just surprise that Euro have different rule. I have no problem with it, but it maybe would be more simple if we all follow the NAR rule. Curb are part of track as per the rule. At least, if you have other different rules, you should write it all down to make shure that none are forget.

The rule is more for track that curb are flat and you gain too mutch by putting wheel outside of it, we have to put a limit somewhere. But it is true that on last race track, curb are deadly.

SteveB is refering at going wide in a curve like i did, on few track, going wide gives you a extra advantage, just like at Spa, few corner are like that. Wide is also conside as «cutting» the track on the outside. But on last track, wide was in fact making you loose time.
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by dutch power »

MY reason to quit has nothing to do with cutting, but with the things that happend around the race last sunday wich upset me quite a lot. Also i never knew that
Euro aparantly changed rule for cutting where was said that curb is not part of track. I know it was changed from 4 wheel rule to 2 wheel on track rule years ago so admin would have less work
to do on track verifieng and such. However if it has been changed again it must have happend when i wasnt racing i guess last year so.?? Anyway i always raced with the impresion of 2 wheel on track rule with track, white line, curb considered as part of track.

Anyway clear up the rules i would say.

Anyway next 5 weeks i cant race anyway because today i sended my G25 to a team member in my team who has broken his wheel and will have to mis his one for 4 a 5 weeks. He has a few important races to come so i decided to send my wheel to him. So next 5 weeks im gonna chill out a bit, after that i will see if i have some motivation left for the remaining races.
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Bilbo »

Like Flow, I'm VERY surprised about this discussion on the rules. I mean the rules have been pretty much the same for as long as I remember with the exception of the switch from 4-wheels-on-track to the current 2-wheels-on-track. All other changes have been very minor. Curbs have ALWAYS been officially considered as part of the track at NAR (even in the 4-wheels-on-track days) so I have no idea where the idea that they wouldn't be comes from. Maybe you guys in Euro div. have a gentleman's agreement on the subject (like for LC) but remember that a gentleman's agreement is NOT a rule. If you have a driver's agreement among you, then it's up to said drivers to police and enforce it, not the admins (other than as drivers themselves).

If you have doubts on the rules or think that they are maybe outdated or you're not sure if they apply to a particular situation, by all means ASK ABOUT IT, either by PM to an admin or as a public post (that's even better because someone may be having the same question as you). There are usually some good reasons for the existence of most of our rules but some are unavoidably arbitrary and things had to be chosen just to ensure that things are fair for everyone.

If some people want to have a change of rule, that can be discussed, but there is a certain protocol about it and before a change of rule becomes effective (after being agreed on by the admins you voted for), it has to be made public to EVERYONE and BEFORE it takes effect. So, unless there is something written to the contrary, all the current rules as posted on the website apply.

And for those who think that the current rules are "breaking" the fun, then you are probably wrong. This league used to have one of the strictest set of rules (in the 4-wheels-on-track days) and people still managed to have a lot of fun and, I'd risk saying, were even taking pride in it. You knew that whatever result you got was gotten in the hardest conditions and that made you (feel like you were) standing above other drivers in other leagues with similar results but more relaxed rules. It was not unusual in those days to see someone abort a qualy lap because he made a cut by mistake. Sadly, from what I read, that kind of sportmanship has now been mostly lost and people still complain about the "seriousness" of the current (and much relaxed) rules. Well, yeah, some people are taking things much too seriously, but other people sure are NOT caring enough. It sure is possible to have fun even within the strict words of the rules (if they were strictly enforced, which they haven't been so much this season), this league used to be the embodiment of that and it's actually just up to everyone of us to make sure it happens (or not, sadly).

Remember, this league is what you make it...
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Re: Flow's EURO Valencia suggestion.

Post by Coffeemachine »

FredN wrote:First, I will not partake in a penalty discussion for the Valencia race, that is up to the admins to deal with. I did not see it so I have no view on it.

But I would like to say that I think the rules regarding what is considered part of the track is quite strange after what I just read in the previous post. In NAR Euro League we have always said that the kerbs are NOT part of the track, and that the white line is the last part of the track. The same seems to be the case in real life, after seeing the Monaco Grand Prix this year where Massa got a warning for having all four wheels on the kerb in the second swimming pool chicane. But it seems like there is different regulations from race to race about that ( as with everything else in F1). Take the Nürburgring for example, where you can have all four wheels off the track out of the Mercedes-complex without recieving a warning of any kind.
An even more obvious example is the exit of turn 1 at A1-Ring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os3pY_CCvTw

Insane. Anyway I'm confused about it now, but I guess we should follow what's written here in NAR and nothing else.

i dont have time to read anything but i'll just point out:

the curbs has ALWAYS been a part of the track in euro (always being as long as ive been here) :)
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